Edward O'Brien, Class of '59
Oral History Interview
January 22, 2017
Interviewed by Joseph Cates
JOSEPH CATES: It stopped recording for a minute. Okay. So, tell me about your fraternity.
EDWARD O'BRIEN: Fraternity, we, uh, as president of the fraternity, I,obviously, we had some very noble social events. One of the best social events was just before Christmas vacation. We would have a very formal party where members of the faculty would be invited. We'd all be dressed in the military end of it. PMS & T end of it would wear dress blues and we'd be in our dress uniform also, at that time.
EO: I have some very good memories to this date of the fraternity along with theguys I still see, Mark Kisiel, who's a fraternity brother of mine. Pierson Mapes was a fraternity brother of mine. We see each other. Well, unfortunately, Pier is gone. He passed on. But, uh, Newt Pendleton, my roommate was also SA.
JC: Tell me about Skull and Swords.00:01:00
EO: Skull and Swords, at that time, was a lot different than what it becameeventually. Skull and Swords, at that time, was consisted of those individuals who were considered to be leaders on the campus, I guess, the criteria for that, in different fields. Our role, at that time, was if we saw something in the Corp cadets which we felt should be addressed, but it was sensitive and may cause personality clashes, we had the right, as a member of the Skull and Swords, to bypass the chain of command and go directly to General Harmon. We had direct access to the president of the college, who was General Harmon at the time, and we could address those problems with him and they'd be held in a very confidential manner. And that's what I did. I had a lot of interaction with Colonel Moseley who was commandant of the cadets because I was president of the IFC. I was always in the commandant's office, addressing some problem with that. 00:02:00Moseley, I'm trying to think, I'd call him Mo, but I can't think of his last name right now.
JC: Maurice Smith?
EO: No. He was a lieutenant colonel. In the commandant's office, he used to beone of the oldest graduates we have now. He's a hundred and two.
JC: Mo Smith? Mo Smith is a hundred.
EO: Oh! Mo Smith! Yes. It is Mo Smith. Yes. Mo Smith. Colonel Smith to me, backin those days and I would go up and report to Colonel Smith, before I got to see Colonel Moseley and Colonel [indecipherable], and old colonel of [indecipherable], in a few minutes. So, that was Colonel Smith. Yes.
JC: What else do you remember about Colonel Smith?
EO: Colonel Smith, he didn't talk much. He was kind of, well, I was a cadet. So,00:03:00he didn't have a lot of interaction because he was a colonel and I was a cadet, but I always got along with Colonel Smith and he would always sort of test the waters before I got to see Colonel Moseley, as I recall.
JC: Did you play any sports?
EO: Not really. I started out, I believe it was in football. But I had broken mynose playing, when I was playing football for Worcester Academy and I really done some damage. I know that, because I had made the team and everything, I never bothered to have my nose fixed so it stayed broken and started causing me a lot of problems. So, I really couldn't. So, the answer is no.
JC: Okay. What activities did you participate in?
EO: Oh, I did a lot of it, because of the fact I had the IFC plus my own house,a lot of it had to with the fraternity houses because not only did I have my own house, I had worry about all the rest of the houses -
EO: - and what was happening there. There were a lot of problems.
JC: Any very memorable incidents?
EO: Uh, up there? That I want to record? Laughs. I'm trying to think of one Ican put on record. Oh, God. I can't really think of, to isolate them, but we had some interesting experiences up there. I think, as far as I'm concerned, my end of it was to implement, the constant implementation of policy from Colonel Moseley, the Commandant's office, to the fraternity organization as it existed. It was a delicate situation. There was no question in our minds General Harmon was not particularly fond of fraternities at that time on the campus. We all knew that. And so, it was a very, I think my biggest problem was to maintain 00:05:00that delicate balance between the fraternities and General Harmon through Colonel Moseley. It was a tough job.
JC: Okay. What did you do to relax when you were on campus?
EO: To relax on campus? One of my fraternity brothers and I were members of theArmy aviation program up there, so we flew a lot. We would fly out of Barre, Montpelier. We enjoyed flying. Anytime we wanted to take an aircraft, once we got our student license, which we qualified. I think it took us seven and a half to eight hours to qualify for the student license, which both he and I did. After you did that, you had to put in so many hours all the time, so we just called up the air field up there where the military had reserved certain aircraft. If you called and reserved one, we used to go up. I'd fly with Gary. 00:06:00We'd both take a J3 up. We'd kind of pretend we were in World War I. We'd fly down over the fraternity house in Northfield and getting our hours in and we'd get down in the valley but we'd forget, you know, we didn't forget. We knew. We only had a ninety-five-horse power engine in the aircraft and then, we tried to climb out of the valley and find out it wasn't going to do that. So, we had to fly back and forth and sort of zig zag. So, we had fun in moments like that, looking back on it. We had a lot of outrageous things that happened too but [indecipherable] put those on the record. Laughs. They involved too many people that are very prominent up there now.
JC: What'd you do or where did you go for entertainment?
EO: Oh, for entertainment, that was difficult. Of course, the fraternity housesfilled that void to ninety-five percent. But when you're a rook, when you're a 00:07:00freshman, you had no car. Our sole entertainment was to go up to the Capital City Grange and dance at the Capital City Grange at that time, outside of Montpelier. It would basically be in that area. And then, we'd have to thumb up there, if an upperclassman would give us a ride, which most wouldn't. And so, we were kind of, oh, and the other thing was to go down to, it was a big deal, go down to the Tunbridge Fair in the fall. That was our first liberty was one night down at the Tunbridge Fair. That was a big deal as a rook, you know.
JC: Tell me a little bit about the fair.
EO: About the what?
JC: The fair. The Tunbridge Fair.
EO: The Tunbridge Fair, what we did down there?
EO: Well, there was a certain tent where they had certain girls. Okay. I don'tthink I have to go much further than that. 00:08:00
JC: Do you remember any particular songs from when you were at Norwich?
EO: Songs? No. Not really. I wasn't into that so much.
JC: Okay. Who were the instructors that most influenced you during your time at Norwich?
EO: Oh, that's easy. Eber Spencer, who was a professor of Government. Definitelyhim. George Newbrough, professor of English. Major Norman, professor of History. Colonel Morse, professor of History.
JC: Any particular reason?
EO: Captain Spencer, at that time, very bright guy, he was government. He waswhat put the final nail on what I'd already decided to do. My dad was a lawyer in Worcester. I always knew I wanted to be a lawyer, but he was the one that put 00:09:00the final nail in the decision on that when I had Constitutional Law with him, which was great, and I had my senior thesis in government. He had great influence. I told him I was going to go to law school. I applied to law school. Got in.
JC: Okay. Well, we'll get back to law school in a few minutes. What were youfavorite and least favorite classes?
EO: My least favorite classes? My least favorite class. My least favorite class,I think, was an algebra class that we had to take and that mathematics stuff. I was always so lousy at math.
JC: Most history majors are.
EO: Yeah. Laughs. I was terrible.
JC: What do you remember about being a rook?00:10:00
EO: About being a rook? Oh, the regimentation was something we are veryunaccustomed to. It really makes you up there. That what makes you really, your first six months at Norwich. It makes you. It completely changes you from a little teen that you had lived all your life, up until that point. It brought discipline, which it was. If you didn't do what you were told, you wish you had. Somehow, although you're not aware of it at the time, in fact, you don't become aware of it until after you graduate. Okay. At the time, you become a different individual. You start to think differently. You start to act differently. It's very regimented, as you know. You never can walk a casual corner. You had to do a square corner. You have to respect people who are maybe a couple of years or a 00:11:00year older than you are and telling you what to do and that's a tough thing to do, to learn how to accept that, do it, and that's part of the building of the character to recognize in life, you will be faced with situations where people you might not particularly like dealing with but you'll do it for the sake of accomplishing the mission you're involved with at the time.
EO: You don't realize any of that until you graduate and get out into real life.
JC: Did you ever get into any trouble?
JC; Do you want to tell me about it?
EO: No. Laughs.
JC: How were you disciplined? Can you tell me that?
EO: Yeah. It was down in Fort Knox. We missed bed check. That's what the problem00:12:00was. That was very serious and because this was during summer camp. For the whole time we were there, I did KP every day and washed the steps I don't know how many times in Nunziato Hall, which was the hall down in Fort Knox. It was a learning experience.
JC: What was the hardest part of attending Norwich?
EO: That hardest part. I think the hardest part of attending Norwich is whereit's located, in the most beautiful place in the world I think. But it was tough to get to, you know, without a car. It was tough. You were kind of isolated up there. Of course, now they have, it's co-ed. It wasn't when I was there. It was all guys. And so, if you wanted to get anywhere, the nearest girls' college for a date or anything was Vermont Junior College at the time. Until we finally all 00:13:00got cars and then, of course, we'd branch out to Green Mountain and places like that. I think getting there, when you're getting back up to Norwich, we didn't have the Interstate 89, which we have now. We had River Road, we'd go. I'd always go where you follow from White River Junction, you follow White River all the way up to Northfield. Boy, I can remember some nights you'd go with snow. You'd learn how to drive in very bad weather and survive. You'd also know how to drive at night and try and stay awake and see imaginary deer in the road when there were none. That was the Old River Road. I remember remoteness. That was toughest thing. It was geographical, not mentally. It was just geographical was toughest thing going to Norwich.
JC: Okay. What was your favorite part of Norwich?
EO: I think the fraternity life up there, at the time. Believe it or not, I00:14:00actually liked the pomp and circumstance too of it all with the parade. I liked the band. They used to rehearse in the upper green. They'd come out of Jackman Hall. They used to rehearse. I used to love to listen to them. They marched back and forth, and they'd be rehearsing whatever. I liked all that.
JC: What was the most important thing that Norwich taught you?
EO: That's a good question. I think the most important thing that Norwich taughtyou I think was to rely on yourself. I think a lot of what Norwich teaches you in the decision-making portion of your life, how to think things through before you make that decision. You can incorporate that to a great extent when you 00:15:00finally go on active duty in the military. The camaraderie-ship, unlike any other. You meet a Norwich guy, he's your friend for life. You meet a Norwich guy now, [indecipherable] or anywhere, on business, "You're a Norwich man?" You know, I think that definitely [indecipherable]. I know other guys who've been to colleges that nowhere near, I'm as close to the guys I know at Norwich, particularly the ones I mentioned. Sully, who's house I'm sitting in now is my closest friend. I have others. Teddy [indecipherable], who just lives down the road here. Paul Buckley, who's just over here. They're all classmates of mine. That's without question, the biggest thing. I don't see it in any other college. I don't see it in any alumni from any other colleges as close as we guys are. 00:16:00They're my brothers, really.
JC: What did "I Will Try" mean to you as a student?
JC: "I Will Try," the motto.
EO: "I Will Try." Huh! You always tried! Truthfully, probably not much, but youalways did it! You know? You always did try. And so, whether that, there was the motto, I didn't necessarily look back, well, we used to say that. If we were faced with a problem, most of the time, well, "I will try." Stuff like that, you know? So there, in fact, it did have an influence but an indirect influence, you know. You would just say it kiddingly, but it really was an influence.
EO: And you kept at it all the time.
JC: Has that changed as you've gotten older?
EO: No. I have to do it every day. I'm a trial lawyer. I face it every day. I'llface it Monday, tomorrow, again, before a jury.
JC: What does Partridge's idea of citizen solder mean to you?00:17:00
EO: The concept of a citizen soldier, I think, it is unique. I think it hasdefinitely proven its value particularly in this situation that we've experienced in the last decade or maybe two decades with these wars we have, where you have the National Guard being deployed so many times. They're all citizen soldiers. It was a concept that you accept and you really, for me, it was very, you really respond to it. You know you have two, you were trained to do two things in your life. One is whatever profession you've chosen in your life, whatever job you've chosen in your life, business or whatever it is, and your duty to your country, your military duty. This came home to me very 00:18:00significantly when I was in England and got called to active duty and I was involved in something that was important to me but I got the word that I had to be in Fort Knox, Kentucky in three weeks and I was at Fort Knox, Kentucky, back in uniform. There was never any question in my mind.
JC: Do you remember any funny stories from your time at Norwich?
EO: Oh, sure. Tons!
JC: Any you can tell?
EO: Oh, gosh! Let me think. There were crazy things. Well, I'll give you one. Itwas because it involved a couple guys that I know pretty well up there out of my class and all the, Mark Kisiel, myself, and Pier Mapes. We decided we were going to go buy a car. So, we go down to South Northfield and we run into this 00:19:00[indecipherable] by a mechanic by the name of Art. Art had two hearses for sale. One was a La Salle and one was a Cadillac. Mark Kisiel and I bought the La Salle hearse and Pier Mapes bought the Cadillac. We ride back to Norwich and we pull up in two hearses. Oh, God! And everything got followed back by those damn hearses. People thought we were very macabre.
JC: What did you do after graduation?
EO: After graduation, I was accepted to Boston University Law School and I endedgoing right back into the academics, which I think was kind of a mistake. I 00:20:00should've taken a little time. But anyway, I did my first year at Boston University Law School. Then, I did my second year at Boston University Law School. And then, I got a little tired of studying and I thought, "Well, I think I'll just take a year off." Biggest mistake ever made. I had met somebody in England and I wanted to see what it was like in England. I went to live in England. That's when I got called to active duty. And I was, during that period of time, I wasn't paying attention to what was going on in the world because they were building the Berlin Wall. Kennedy was president. When I was in England, I got word through the embassy actually, military attaches' office. My 00:21:00father told them where I was. My father was very happy to give them that information to get me out of England. That's when I got word I'd been called to active duty. I was to be at Fort Knox and I went to the Armor School at Fort Knox. Before I knew it, I was back in Munich, Germany. That started a whole new series of my life in Munich, Germany. Eventually, although I was supposed to be stationed in Munich, I arrived in Munich and I said, "Who do I know from Norwich who's on active duty over here in Germany?" And, of course, it was one of my best buddies, Dick Durgin. You know who Dick Durgin was. Dick Durgin eventually became a brigadier general. He died. He passed on. But, so, I called Dick Durgin. I had his number in Germany. I called him up. He said, "Where are you?" 00:22:00You know, I said, "I'm down here at the officer's club in Munich. I've been assigned to such and such unit." "Oh. No, you're not! The hell with that! We're bringing you back up here to Achberg. Wait a minute. You stay right there. I've got a few big calls I'm going to make. I'm going to be down in a few minutes." It's about an hour's drive from Achberg to Munich. And, he says, "Come on. Get your things. We're going back to Achberg." I said, "Dick, I'm supposed to be reporting." "No. No. I've changed all that. You're going to A Company 32nd down at Achberg. That's all been worked out. Come on. You're coming back with me." I spent almost four years, three and a half years in Germany with Dick. We were both in the same battalion. I seemed to follow him. Every job he had, I stepped into his job for a while. But I was with Dick, who was a close friend of mine. [indecipherable] while I was in Germany. If you want to get into the military aspect of it, when I arrived in Germany, I arrived, the 32nd armor, we were the 00:23:00first unit in Germany to get the M60 tank which the main battle tank. It had the 105 canon on it, the main gun on it. It was considered very up-to-date at that particular time. I was a platoon leader. I had five tanks. I became an executive officer of C company of then the 70th armor. They changed the colors and they became the 70th armor. I was executive C company 70th armor. And then, I was company commander for a short time of C company of the 70th armor but they put me in S3. There was an opening in the S3, the S3 got sick, which was a captain's slot. I was still a first lieutenant. But I became the S3 as a first lieutenant. I became the S3 of the 70th armor. At that time, my boss, Terry Allen, who was a 00:24:00major, Terry Allen was the son of General Allen, who was a very prominent, very close to General Harmon because General Harmon had the 2nd armor and Terry's dad had the 3rd armor division. Terry Allen loved Norwich guys because of his dad's association with Harmon. The colonel at the time was Colonel Houston. He was a good man too. He was a battalion commander. I served as the S3 until I, we were extended because of the Vietnam situation. Unfortunately, my roommate who I had in Germany, Parker Kramer, roomed together the whole time I was there. He went to 'Nam and he was killed. Terry Allen was killed too in Vietnam. 00:25:00
JC: Now, did you stay in Germany?
EO: Yeah. I stayed in Germany. These guys were career officers. And, you know,they volunteered back then. They were there when Sully was there. Sully volunteered too because that was when if you were a career officer, that's what you wanted to be. There's really not much use for armored officers in Germany. I mean in Vietnam. Germany was a tank company and there were all these career guys, wanted to go to 'Nam. So, there are all these positions opening up. They were running short of their NATO commitment. So, they extended us. I was over my obligated period. They extended me for almost a year. But it's all right. I had fallen in love, at that time, with the burgermeister's daughter and I ended up 00:26:00marrying her. So, it's okay by me. Burgermeister's the mayor of the town.
JC: So, you married the mayor's daughter.
JC: And brought her back to the United States?
EO: I did. Unfortunately, our married lasted awhile. We had two very nice boys,but we were subsequently divorced.
JC: Did you come back and finish law school?
EO: I did. That was interesting. After being away for almost three and a halfyears from law school, I go back to Boston University, thinking I'm just going to do my last year. The dean brought me in and said, "Well, I'm sorry. I know you were in the service in the Army, but you've been gone for three and a half years." "Well, yes, sir, but I remember it all." He says, "You're going to have to do your second year over if you want to go." "I've got a wife and she's 00:27:00pregnant. I can't do two years." So, I went to New England Law School and they said, "No. We're not going to require you do your second year over." It comes right back to you. So, I graduated from New England Law School after that. So, I was a graduate of New England Law School.
JC: How did your training at Norwich prepare you for life?
EO: In my line of work, very much so, because it's a very disciplined manner ofthinking when you're doing law. And a lot of it, I must have done pretty well. In school, I was an intern, when I was in law school, in the attorney general's office. Ed Brooke was the attorney general, at the time, of Massachusetts. And 00:28:00when I graduated from law school, he asked me to come into the attorney general's office. I went in as a legal assistant to the attorney general until he went to the Senate. He was the first black elected to the Senate since Reconstruction. It was a very exciting time to be in the attorney general's office. I was with the attorney general. I said, "Well, what's next?" So, we all went to interviews for the individual who was coming in after Ed Brooke went down to the Senate. Elliot Richardson ran for the office of attorney general of Massachusetts. We all went in for interviews before his people and he chose me to stay and I became an assistant attorney general under Elliot Richardson. I stayed with Elliot Richardson until he became the attorney general of the United States. As you remember, he became attorney general of the United States under President Nixon. He was also the one because he wouldn't fire Archibald Cox 00:29:00during Watergate, he resigned, Monday Night Massacre. So, I was with him. He was a great guy. And then, when he went on to become attorney general of the Unites States, I decided it was time. I'd been in the attorney general's office for almost six years, I guess. That was long enough. I went into a private trial firm in Worcester.
JC: Okay. Tell me about that. Going into that.
EO: Into a private trial?
JC: Mm hmm.
EO: I was the youngest trial lawyer in the firm, at that time. God, we weretrying cases most every day. These would be remand cases in the district court. The court was so backlogged at the time. We would be trying district court cases 00:30:00mostly every day. And then, finally, I got promoted up, so I was doing the jury trial work in the superior court. And from that period on, for the last, I'm in my fiftieth year as a lawyer, I've done nothing but try jury cases in the superior court and also in the federal court. A lot in the federal court because I was general counsel for the Worcester County Sheriff's Department for thirty years. We had a lot of civil rights cases filed against us at the time. Here, I was in the military and was relatively, I was in the military during the Cuban Crisis. We thought we were going to be overrun. There was going to be some situation developing in Europe by virtue of the fact that the President's mind off Cuba and get him involved also. They thought they were going to make some time of a move in Europe, so we were all on alert. In Germany, at that period of 00:31:00time, we were on the front line too as an armored unit. We were only a couple miles from the border. We knew what would probably happen to us if that occurred. I knew how many armored divisions because I was an S3, so I knew exactly how many armored divisions were on the other side of the border of the Soviet end of things. It didn't happen. Thank God! But, one of the cases I had is, a famous case, from my perspective, is we had a girl by the name of, can't think of her name. She was a terrorist. She was involved. She was incarcerated at the Worcester County Jail and House of Correction for being involved in the 00:32:00murder of Officer Schroeder in Boston. She, as I recall, was a member of the Black Panthers at the time. We had to go down for a conference. She was a federal prisoner, awaiting trial for Officer Schroeder in Massachusetts in the state system, but still a federal prisoner. So, we had to house her at Worcester and we had to go down for a conference before the chief justice regarding her imprisonment and the conditions over her imprisonment. We got on the elevator to go up to the eighth floor to the chief justice's office and there was a big explosion and a bomb went off on the third floor of the Suffolk County Courthouse. It missed us. It was for us. They knew this meeting was taking place. It missed us by thirty seconds. We got on the elevator. We were just 00:33:00getting off the elevator. It destroyed the whole third floor. We were stuck up there for a good five hours. Couldn't walk down because all this smoke had filled the corridors. There was no place to go. We were stuck up there. Because we were up near the chief justice's office, they had their own law library. And so, we went in there. They put rags under the door to keep the smoke out because the corridors were filling with smoke. So, I survived Germany, action there, and I nearly get blown up in Boston! So, there you go!
JC: You never know.
EO: You never know. Right.
JC: Um, how do you think your professional life would have been different hadyou not been a Norwich graduate?
EO: My life would not have the close companionship of friends that I have today00:34:00if I'd gone anywhere else. Because I see it in others. People that have graduated from Harvard, I don't care where the hell they graduated from, it isn't the same. Not at all. That's the difference.
JC: Has being a Norwich graduate opened doors for you that may not have beenopened otherwise?
EO: At the time, no, because the school was not as well known when we came outin '59. But today, yes. Yeah. "Oh, you're a Norwich man." Yeah. I noticed that, I have my grandson, who is a graduate of West Point. He lives right here in Massachusetts. He says, "Jeez, Gramps. I graduate West Point and they ask more 00:35:00about you being a Norwich man!" Of course!
JC: Have you been involved in Norwich since you graduated?
EO: Yeah. In the museum, you'll see the plaque up there in the rotunda. That,the bridge. Go to a hockey game. I'm going up this weekend. I'll be up at Norwich this weekend.
EO: Stay over Richard's house. I'm going to meet the general up there. He'scoming up from Washington. We do this. It's our annual thing. We do it every year. Go to the hockey. Stay with Rich. Yeah. I've been involved with 00:36:00everything, especially when it involves him. [indecipherable] whether we're building a bridge or yeah. I've done a lot of things. Different things we've gone up to. I know a lot of people up there.
JC: Let's see. You've already answered that question so, what advice would yougive a rook today about how to survive and thrive at Norwich?
EO: I've already done that. I've interviewed guys that want to go up there andthat's one of the things I tell them, how you survive at Norwich. Okay.
JC: And what do you tell them?
EO: What I tell them is that, I tell them all, "Listen to when someone's talkingto you. Do what they ask. If you've got a problem, trust your other fellow 00:37:00cadets. Work with your other fellow cadets. If you work with the other fellow cadets and you work as a team, you can get through anything up there." I said, "It's not pleasant. Not particularly pleasant, but you can make it fun, if you do work with your other cadets. Don't be a loner. Don't try and do it by yourself. Don't be stoic. Don't be off to one side. Get involved. If you're getting your [indecipherable], take it and shut up, you know. You'll learn how to handle those situations." I always was gratified, one thing Norwich, as far as the military is concerned, teaches you, after four years of being up there, you know how to deal with the military. When you go on active duty, it's a 00:38:00little bit different but not all that much. And so, you're no stranger to it. You're not a shrinking violet. You know how to deal in the military. You know how to handle troops. You know how to talk to troops, especially in an armored unit, where an armored unit's very close because you have to have constant communication. You have five tanks under your command. You got twenty-five tanks if you're company commander. To maneuver all those vehicles, you got to know! Yeah. Just interact with your fellow cadets and you'll get through anything.
JC: Do you have any relatives that attended Norwich?
EO: No. No relatives.
JC: Tell me a little bit about General Sullivan when he was at Norwich.00:39:00
EO: Well, I always tell this story. Sully, as you know, was a cadet private allfour years. It was just because, you know, he wasn't all seemingly oriented, you know, that way, to cadet life. He was very smart. He was very good academically. But he did have a great liking for the real Army aspect of it. He was a not the "spit and polish." He didn't care about things like your brass having to shine. To him, that was, "Okay. I'll deal with it but [indecipherable]." But he liked the military aspect of it. He liked the military courses. He liked being in the motor pool. He liked map reading. He liked the PMS&T stuff, the PMS&T taught us 00:40:00at the time. Okay? And, of course, we were kind of loosey-goosey sometimes and because Sully was a cadet private and didn't really much care whether he had rank or not, but he was smart academically and he was smart in his military courses. He liked that. He liked the military. Just didn't care about the spit and polish of the military. Still pretty much that way now. And so, I remember we were down in the motor pool and we had this PMS&T instructor, Captain Hardy. He was also a graduate of Norwich. He was a captain. He's down in the motor pool and we had the M47 tanks at that time at Norwich and it was during mechanical, how you break a track and how you get it back on again and all the mechanics. Captain Hardy asked this question. I forgot what the question was, but it was a 00:41:00question that nobody could answer. Nobody knew but Sullivan raises his hand and gave the answer. Okay. And Hardy looked at Sullivan and said, "You know, this guy Sullivan, he's going to be something in this man's army!" We all laughed. "Yeah! Right! Yeah. He'll be something all right." You know, because of the attitude at the time but I remind him of that. "He'll be something in this man's army, Sullivan." I think that stands, one thing, only I think it brings it up because he went on to what he went on to be. And, of course, I always remember that, "You'll be something." Of course, we had a lot of fun. We did a lot of crazy things. He was a lot of fun. He becomes a cheerleader, so he didn't have to march at football games, you know. So, he becomes a cheerleader. Things like 00:42:00that. So, you can see what his general attitude was but at the same time, he's absorbing all that really made him. And he'll tell you that. It's in some of his interviews. That's what's so interesting about the place. You might look as though you're not paying attention. I remember that Colonel Morse used to tell me that. He'd see me staring off into space and Morse would say, "I don't know if you're just paying attention or you're off somewhere else." That's the mystic of Norwich that it may look as though you're not involved but you are involved. And it's getting into you. And that was Sullivan's, what happened to him. He got a lot out of Norwich. He'll tell you that himself. As I said, a lot of us probably didn't realize it at the time. You realize it later really what the 00:43:00place did for you. It's hard to explain it really, you know. I get asked this a lot. It just happens. It happens. You get involved.
JC: Well, tomorrow I'm interviewing Mark Kisiel.
JC: Uh huh. Is there anything in particular I should ask him?
EO: Laughs. Yeah! I'd love to tell you to ask him a few things, but I can't!He'll kill me! I can't do that. That would be so funny, though! [indecipherable]. Okay. I can do it in a roundabout way. "Ed said you had a lot 00:44:00of fun on your way down to your summer camp." Just leave it at that. I'm not going any further! We went down to North Carolina to see his, God, don't ask him that question if his wife's around while you're doing this!
EO: Okay? All right.
JC: I promise.
EO: To visit his girlfriend. I don't know what happened to us. It was prettyfunny. What else? Oh, yeah. I could never, well no. I didn't ask him that. I could never remember what we did with the hearses, how we got rid of those. Did we sell them? I was asking him that the other day, when I last saw him. "Do you know what we did with the hearses?" You can ask him about the hearses. 00:45:00[indecipherable]. Mark's a good guy. Very successful guy. Busy guy. Very successful. Yeah. Good man. Hard worker for Norwich. Raises a lot of money for Norwich. He's always calling me.
JC: Well, is there anything else that you'd like to add that we haven't talked about?
EO: No. Right now, here it is, how many years since 1955 and I'm excited aboutgoing up there this weekend for a hockey game. Christ! How many years has it been? 00:46:00
JC: Mm hmm.
EO: If you've still got that type of feeling, you know they're doing something right.
JC: Yes, sir. All right. Well, thank you very much.
End of recording.